30 replies to this topic

[Steve M]

How many here think this is important?   Me being a new photographer I use it only because it is there and have never turned it off on my lens. 

 

I take a lot of train pictures and I would like to at least rent a wide angle lens to see how they turn out.   I was all set to rent a Nikon lens with VR but two people told me to get the Tokina 11-20mm f/2.8 instead.   They said it performs much better but it does not have VR where the Nikon does.   One person I talked to also claimed with wide angle the VR is not as critical. 

[ScottinPollock]

I think optical in-lens (and in body) image stabilization is one of the most useful camera technologies introduced in the last couple of decades. It has opened a lot of new doors for hand held photography where before you wouldn't have got the shot without a tripod.

 

But it is not perfect for every scenario, not the least of which is moving subjects. While OIS (optical image stabilization) will allow you to get the shot with a slower shutter speed that previously might be blurred by camera movement, it offers no help for blurred picts caused by the movement of your subject.

 

You can read a bit more about when and when not to use it at: Turning Off OIS

 

As for an ultrawide, the Tokina will be better for moving subjects and astrophotography. A VR equipped lens will give better results of still subjects at night and indoors. If you want VR, I would skip the Nikon and look at the Tamron 10-24 F/3.5-4.5 Di II VC HLD. It is a tad faster than the Nikon, with more versatile range, amazing VR, has EM controlled aperture (which works during video), renders better than either the Nikon or the Tokina IMHO, and is weather sealed to boot.

[Merco_61]

What shutter speeds do you usually use for your train pictures? The VR doesn't do much as long as you are faster than 1/(1.5X focal length) on a DX body. This rule of thumb breaks down a bit with ultrawides as you get subject movement even if you can hold the camera still enough. I think you usually use somewhere around 1/1000 or so from what you have shown in the Your best... threads, in that case VR definitely isn't necessary.

[Steve M]

 

 

You can read a bit more about when and when not to use it at: Turning Off OIS

 

As for an ultrawide, the Tokina will be better for moving subjects and astrophotography. A VR equipped lens will give better results of still subjects at night and indoors. If you want VR, I would skip the Nikon and look at the Tamron 10-24 F/3.5-4.5 Di II VC HLD. It is a tad faster than the Nikon, with more versatile range, amazing VR, has EM controlled aperture (which works during video), renders better than either the Nikon or the Tokina IMHO, and is weather sealed to boot.

that article is awesome.   I bookmarked it for later us also.   Great explanation on when and not when.   I have been doing it wrong.   Not anymore   Thank you

What shutter speeds do you usually use for your train pictures? The VR doesn't do much as long as you are faster than 1/(1.5X focal length) on a DX body. This rule of thumb breaks down a bit with ultrawides as you get subject movement even if you can hold the camera still enough. I think you usually use somewhere around 1/1000 or so from what you have shown in the Your best... threads, in that case VR definitely isn't necessary.

 

 

When standing close to in front head on of the train I like to use 1/1000.   (no I am not on tracks  LOL but maybe 20 feet off the tracks)   And I like ISO 400.  Except for overcast days I have to use a higher ISO and use automatic alot to get the best picture.  If I am taking a picture of a late Amtrak running 79 mph then I will go to 1/1200.   This is at a focal length of about 40 and up to 80.

 

Now I imagine if I am a greater distance away from the train more side view the shutter speed can be slowed down??

[Merco_61]

I shot a commuter train approaching the station last week. I am standing at the last level crossing before the terminus. Here I was after creating a sense of speed, even though the speed here is no more than 40-45 kph, so I used a long shutter speed and panned instead of freezing things with a fast shutter.

 

 

EXIF:

Model: NIKON D7200
Lens (mm): 22
ISO: 100
Aperture: 5
Shutter: 1/50

[ScottinPollock]

Now I imagine if I am a greater distance away from the train more side view the shutter speed can be slowed down??

 

79 mph is about 116 feet per second. Let's say your field of view is 116 feet wide... a 1/1000th second shutter speed will mean you'll see 1.4 inches of movement in the frame. 1.4 inches is approximately a tenth of a percent of your 116 feet wide field of view, so in a 6000 pixel wide capture of this field of view, you will have six pixels of movement (a tenth of 1 percent of 6000) in the shot. Easily noticed when pixel peeping, but probably imperceptible on an 8x10 print.

 

Use the same math for any other setup to determine what motion you can freeze. As your field of view increases, the movement of the object becomes a lesser percentage of the field of view, thus less pixels of movement in the frame.

 

But looking at Peter's shot above you can see that freezing motion is not always the best method. It can often make things look flat and motionless. Lowering the shutter speed and panning the camera on the subject blurs the surroundings and relates speed to the viewer. Granted this takes practice, but in the end it will be worth it.

[TBonz]

Based on that, VR not needed...You don't indicate the lens you were looking to rent, so hard to tell if the Tokina would be better or not...

 

I believe that any of my lenses that have VR also have VR turned off !  I have turned it on at certain times, but quite rare...

[ScottinPollock]

BTW... I would add that when using a lower shutter speed to pan moving objects, VR can be very useful to minimize any vertical movement you may induce while panning. In fact, some lenses have a VR mode specifically designed to do this. Others can sense you are panning and limit the VR to vertical only compensation.

[Steve M]

I shot a commuter train approaching the station last week. I am standing at the last level crossing before the terminus. Here I was after creating a sense of speed, even though the speed here is no more than 40-45 kph, so I used a long shutter speed and panned instead of freezing things with a fast shutter.

 

 

EXIF:

Model: NIKON D7200
Lens (mm): 22
ISO: 100
Aperture: 5
Shutter: 1/50

WoW this great.   I really do like this and plan on trying next time out.   Thank you!

 

79 mph is about 116 feet per second. Let's say your field of view is 116 feet wide... a 1/1000th second shutter speed will mean you'll see 1.4 inches of movement in the frame. 1.4 inches is approximately a tenth of a percent of your 116 feet wide field of view, so in a 6000 pixel wide capture of this field of view, you will have six pixels of movement (a tenth of 1 percent of 6000) in the shot. Easily noticed when pixel peeping, but probably imperceptible on an 8x10 print.

 

Use the same math for any other setup to determine what motion you can freeze. As your field of view increases, the movement of the object becomes a lesser percentage of the field of view, thus less pixels of movement in the frame.

 

But looking at Peter's shot above you can see that freezing motion is not always the best method. It can often make things look flat and motionless. Lowering the shutter speed and panning the camera on the subject blurs the surroundings and relates speed to the viewer. Granted this takes practice, but in the end it will be worth it.

 

 

 

Most of my trains are running around 55mph.   Only the Amtraks will run up to 79.   I think I stated I will use 1/1200 then.   Not that it would change much in  your calculations.  As for the pixel movement I do understand,,,,, now.   Never thought of it before.  I have done some great 30 X 36 pictures.   I didn't notice any pixel movement but my eye wouldn't see it.

 

Peter's picture is awesome.   Something I will try the next time out.  I know I won't get it the first time but with time I will. 

Based on that, VR not needed...You don't indicate the lens you were looking to rent, so hard to tell if the Tokina would be better or not...

 

I believe that any of my lenses that have VR also have VR turned off !  I have turned it on at certain times, but quite rare...

 

I am going to rent first then buy.  This gives me options but the first one I am going to try is the Tokina 11-20 f/2.8    This does not have VR control.

[Merco_61]

Panning takes quite a bit of practice to get good, predictable results. If you can get to a track day for either cars or motorbikes at a racetrack, you will have lots of opportunity to perfect your technique. Another good exercise is to shoot cars on an open stretch of road somewhere. I have had to learn panning to get acceptable shots of aircraft in the air as a frozen propeller looks so wrong. I often shoot @~300-400 mm on DX and 1/40-1/125 to get really good disks.

 

These are good examples of a little too short exposure to be ideal, but nice anyway. This day, I had access to the press and spotter enclosure, so I didn't need the usual ridiculous focal lengths.

 

230 mm, 1/160

 

270 mm, 1/160

[ScottinPollock]

Another good exercise is to shoot cars on an open stretch of road somewhere.

Yeah... I was gonna suggest that. Park yourself close to an intersection to a highway with a posted speed limit of the trains' speed you're working with, and practice the pans seeing if you can keep the driver; side view mirror; brand badging sharp. Don't worry about the wheels though, as they are traveling at a whole different speed.

If you work on keeping one part of the vehicle in the same place in the frame, like lining up one of the focus points or a grid line with the side view mirror, and moving to keep it there just before you take the shot, I think you'll be surprised how fast you can develop this skill.

The tough part comes when there are directional shifts and angles that are not left to right or right to left. That just takes lots of experience.

[Steve M]

Peter and Scott. Having issues with my iPad and quoting you each.

I was thinking last night about sitting along a road and picking up cars. Today I just sat a picked up train cars as they moved. These cars were moving around 50 mph. I set my aperture at 5, ISO at 100 bad sgutter at 1/60. But it was too bright. I ended with my shutter at 1/250 and still a bit too bright.

Here is a sample of what I thought was my best. No where close but a start. In front of the car you can see some good movement. Car has blur. Trees above the car really don’t show movement. Please critique if you wish. My biggest thing is learning to move as I hit the shutter button and keeping up and down movement to nothing.

[ScottinPollock]

VR can help with the up and down movement, and by all means be in continuous high (spray and pray) while you're shooting. As you noticed, in bright light you may need a ND filter to get the shutter speed slow enough. In this case, I think you needed to go lower.

[Steve M]

VR can help with the up and down movement, and by all means be in continuous high (spray and pray) while you're shooting. As you noticed, in bright light you may need a ND filter to get the shutter speed slow enough. In this case, I think you needed to go lower.

The picture I showed you was iat 1/250 and I had to darken it up. Here is the first photo I took at 1/60. Clear day sun off to my left behind train. I totally spaced this picture out but it gives you an idea of what the original lighting was.

When you say lowere do you mean to 1/500 or more? Or back to 1/60 for better movement in the back

[ScottinPollock]

No... I meant slower than 1/60th. If you're struggling with bright light, set to shutter priority and let the camera shut the aperture down for you to properly expose. If it is closing it down past f11 or f16, it's time for a ND filter.

[Steve M]

No... I meant slower than 1/60th. If you're struggling with bright light, set to shutter priority and let the camera shut the aperture down for you to properly expose. If it is closing it down past f11 or f16, it's time for a ND filter.

Oh! I understand now! Probably will order a filter also.

[fallout666]

Based on that, VR not needed...You don't indicate the lens you were looking to rent, so hard to tell if the Tokina would be better or not...

 

I believe that any of my lenses that have VR also have VR turned off !  I have turned it on at certain times, but quite rare...

 

i am with him you should not need vr. i only use vr since i can keep my hands steady. do to fact all my life had issue keeping balance straight and fact i have one leg bigger then other and right foot does face straight but to right more. vr is great help but can get in away too. i see when i take action shoots when i move really fast it still little blurry do to fact thinks i am in moving car or something moving do to can not keep straight balance. 

[Steve M]

No... I meant slower than 1/60th. If you're struggling with bright light, set to shutter priority and let the camera shut the aperture down for you to properly expose. If it is closing it down past f11 or f16, it's time for a ND filter.

Going to get a filter. Took it all the way to F/20

[ScottinPollock]

BTW... If you already have a high quality circular polarizer, you can pick up a high quality linear polarizer really cheap (because no one wants one in this digital age), and stack them to make a variable ND filter.

[dcbear78]

Going to get a filter. Took it all the way to F/20

 

You mentioned you like ISO 400. Is that still at 400?