16 replies to this topic

[Thumper]

I have stated many times that I am a hobbyist photographer and that I do not aspire to do this professionally despite my obsession with it.  I do truly love photography, and I love looking at other people's photography.  

 

I have always had an admiration for people that do this for a living in any of the genres of photography.   I was always concerned that if I ever had to produce photographs for a living that I would lose my love for it.  It happened with computers. I used to build computers for fun back in the early to mid 90's, but once I started doing IT work professionally, computers weren't fun anymore.  I didn't want that to happen with my photography.  I shoot almost 100% for my own pleasure.  (I recently went to my granddaughter's High School graduation and took photos for my own collection, but I shared a couple, and one in particular that of the entire graduating class throwing their mortarboards into the air that was a real hit with the class and faculty.  That was fun). 

 

I would do favors for people here and there, and I might take a few shots of something for them, and it was usually portrait type stuff.  I always give my obligatory disclaimer that I am not a professional and that I don't do professional work and that what they get is what they get.  I am not going to spend a lot of time going back over and over to retouch or photoshop things to get what they want.  They can pay someone to do that.  

 

Over the summer, I agreed to bring my camera to a company BBQ and picnic and just shoot.  They just wanted random shots of the event and people enjoying each other.  I reluctantly agreed, and I gave my usual disclaimer along with a statement of no guarantee of a specific time that I might be done with the final photographs.  They seemed to be fine with it.  I took a lot of shots (around 200-250), and I had a blast doing it.  I produced a total of 83 photos, of which I gave them 75 of the photos.  I did it for free, and I told them to do with the photos what they wanted.  They ended up giving me a $100 gift card as a "thank you" gift.  I thought that was pretty cool of them.  

 

So a couple of months ago, the "marketing director" of our firm asked me to do a "few"shots for a staff directory that would include staff photos.  The staff had been asked to submit their own "favorite" photos of themselves, but there were a few that either didn't submit photos or said that they didn't have any to submit.   I agreed, again, for free, and I gave my usual speech.  (This would be for the same marketing director that I purchased a Nikon P&S camera for when she started with the firm a couple of years ago, but the camera hasn't been out of the box once since I bought it for her).  I took my umbrellas, stands, speedlights, and backdrops up to work and setup for a few shots.  I ended up with about 12 people that needed photos.  Not a big deal.  I took the shots, and started working on them in my spare time.  Apparently, the marketing idiot had waited until the last minute to get these done, so by the time that she had asked me to get involved, she was already being pushed to produce them.  So she starts nagging me about them. I told her that I would get them done as soon as I could, but that I didn't agree to a time line, and that if she had wanted that then she should have commissioned a professional photographer and setup a deadline.  Once I produced the photos, she didn't like several of them and asked me to redo them.  I told her that I would, but that I would get them to her when I could, and that probably wouldn't be anytime soon.  She didn't like that and started arguing about it that I needed to get on it immediately. I had to laugh a bit at that point.  I told her to forget it and just make due with what she had.  She wanted to continue to argue about it until I finally told her to get the hell out of my office and to never ask me to do any photo work for her in the future.  I  vowed that I would never again do something like that as a favor for anyone, and it reinforced my decision to never pursue photography professionally.

 

Well, I am stupid.  Because I did do it again, and right after that, as a matter of fact.  One of the attorneys that I really like had asked me last year to take a photo of him and 2 other attorneys for some group/committee that they all belong to.  It was to be published, but I did it for free.  It was quick and easy, and the shot turned out okay. Not amazing, but it was a decent shot, and all 3 liked it, and they all thanked me for doing it.  Fast forward to this year.  Same guy approaches me, and he asks if I will take another shot for this year's group, which had added an extra person.  Wow, I was still reeling from my last bad experience that had just happened about 2 weeks prior to his.  I agreed to do it because I really like this guy, and he has always been there for me when I have needed him at work.  We took the shots, and I worked up a couple of photos for them to choose from.  Then I get a group email from the new guy in the photo wanting things changed around.  Rather than go through all of the changes that he wanted, I offered to reshoot it.  Nope, he didn't want that.  Then I get a call from the same marketing gal telling me how to go about editing the shot!!  Before I could respond to that, I get another email from the new guy saying that he had brought "Linda" (yes, I changed her name) in on the project so she could advise me.  That was followed by an email to the entire group from Linda which was ordering me to make the changes  (which I am not subordinate to her in any capacity at work, let alone for a volunteer job), and berated me for my previous submissions and not consulting her first (when she wasn't involved in the project at all anyway).  I went to the attorney that had asked me to do this, and he started apologizing the second that I walked into his office before I could even say a word.  I just laughed, and I told him that I wasn't upset with him at all.  I told him about the staff directory project, and he just put his face in his palm.  He felt bad that it went sour so quickly.  I told him that it was no big deal, but that I was done with the project at that point, and they would just have to roll with what they had.  (We laughed, and he poured us both each a glass of Auchentoshen 18, and we had a nice chat over some really tasty scotch.  That alone was worth the hassle.  LOL).  But that was truly the final straw for me.  No more favors.   My photography will be 100% for my own pleasure from this point forward.  

 

I must say, I have always admired people that do this sort of thing for a living, but every once and a while, something happens that reminds me how much admire them.  LOL.  You pro's must have the patience of saints.  I know that the stress is a lot different for freelance journalistic and sports photographers since the whole process is so much different (and I won't even get into how competitive that is), but having to do that for a means of income would be a nightmare for me.  I do so enjoy the freedom of just being able to take shots of whatever I want, being able to take whatever time that I want to produce something (if at all), and how it turns out is entirely up to me.  I do love that. I am forever the student (my Sensei would always say that to me. "Senpai, be ever the student.  At all things.") I can learn this at my own rate/pace, and I can make my mistakes and learn and it won't affect my livelihood. It affords me the luxury of experimenting at my leisure.   But I do respect and truly admire those of you who do this full time, and even part time, as professionals.  I know that you are doing something that you love for a living and a career, and there are few things that are quite as rewarding as that.  But I know that I would probably be in jail right now for beating someone half to death with a lens if I had to put up with that kind of crap all the time.  LOL!!

[deano]

It always seems when you do something for free, you get burnt.

[nbanjogal]

So...I've got to know--did you tell Linda to go soak her head? (I want to tell her that and I don't even know her.) After your nice chat over a scotch--did it end there or did you end up doing what she and the new guy were asking? 

 

And deano is right--I nearly always find that the people who want things for free or discounted somehow seem to demand the most. I always have to wonder what the crap is wrong with people???

[Merco_61]

One difference between doing things like this for free and getting paid for it is that the contract spells out everything including either oversight during the shoot or full artistic freedom and deadlines etc. This turns the stress level down considerably for events and corporate shoots. 

[morticiaskeeper]

While I have done a bit of commercial work, I feel the same about it as you, when it becomes a job, it's no longer a hobby.

I have always refused requests to shoot wedding, I just don't want the responsibility. Then my daughter found a way to talk me round! She said that she didn't want a wedding photographer, she wanted pictures, the type of pictures she likes just happen to be those taken in my style, so will I please take some shots at her wedding! I couldn't really say no! A couple of bodies, CLS flash already set at the venue, and handing gear to trusted guests when I was busy, worked well, but I'm not doing it again.

I was recently asked at a days notice to take shots at an event that I was attending, I made it plain that I would just hand over the card, I would not get into any editing. I supplied 324 shots, of which 74 were used by the small charity, I didn't even get a Thankyou!

[Brian]

Were you doing the work on your own time?

 

The worst I've had to do is tell a Minister that I was shooting a wedding as a present to the couple, all expenses paid by me. That changed his attitude. Don't know why, but it did. They could not afford a photographer, friends and family put together the reception.

 

I decided 40 years ago that photography was a great hobby, having a job that includes it is fun. Working on digital imagers and developing image processing algorithms throughout the 1980s helped. 35+ years looking back, think the decision was the correct one and photography is a still great hobby.

[Ron]

An excellent post, Thumper. I admire your control. I'm not sure I could have been so disciplined. Especially when being nagged about something I'm doing pro bono.

 

Your point about not turning your hobby into your profession is on point too. Unfortunately, I've been burnt by this twice. Some people never learn.

 

--Ron

[Thumper]

So...I've got to know--did you tell Linda to go soak her head? (I want to tell her that and I don't even know her.) After your nice chat over a scotch--did it end there or did you end up doing what she and the new guy were asking? 

 

And deano is right--I nearly always find that the people who want things for free or discounted somehow seem to demand the most. I always have to wonder what the crap is wrong with people???

Oh, she got told where she stands with me, and she doesn't jump in the middle of my business anymore.  We give each other a wide berth, and that works well for both of us.

 

And no, after the nice scotch social time, I did not concede and go back and work on that project. I gave him the photos that I had already done in the state that I had originally submitted them to him.  He totally understood and agreed, and he was appreciative of what I had done. (But he liked the shots from the beginning).   The drink and good conversation was to make sure that there was nothing sore between either of us.  It was really nice.    

 

One difference between doing things like this for free and getting paid for it is that the contract spells out everything including either oversight during the shoot or full artistic freedom and deadlines etc. This turns the stress level down considerably for events and corporate shoots. 

That does make sense.  I assumed that a lot of professionals have to deal with that in some capacity.   I would think that portrait photographers and wedding photographers probably have it the worst of all.

 

Were you doing the work on your own time?

 

The worst I've had to do is tell a Minister that I was shooting a wedding as a present to the couple, all expenses paid by me. That changed his attitude. Don't know why, but it did. They could not afford a photographer, friends and family put together the reception.

 

I decided 40 years ago that photography was a great hobby, having a job that includes it is fun. Working on digital imagers and developing image processing algorithms throughout the 1980s helped. 35+ years looking back, think the decision was the correct one and photography is a still great hobby.

Yes, I was doing the work on my own time.  I didn't even use my office workstation.  I transferred all of the shots to my Macbook Pro at home and worked on it in the evenings.  

 

But come to think of it, I did do the directory shots and the "group" shot while I was at work.  (I am exempt/salary, not hourly though). 

[Merco_61]

Shane, shooting weddings can be the most stressful gig you can do, but at the same time the most rewarding when things go right. Studio portraits are somewhere in between, now that it is possible to show the results on-screen while the customer is in the studio. In the film days, it could be a nervous time while the film was in the soup, especially as I mostly used a 4x5" technical camera for portraits.

 

I have semi-retired from photography as a business as I found that I lost some of my creative spark when I had to take most anything that offered to make a living. I make less money now than I used to, but I am happier with my life. I was far too close to stress-induced depression to be comfortable when I did 60-hour weeks in photography regularly. I still do some corporate work and some product shoots for old clients, and that pays for the cameras and lenses, but my part-time work at the library is what I live on. 

[morticiaskeeper]

Being able to pick and choose what I take is the most important reason for not doing pro work.

An old friend asked me today about a portrait of her grandson, I told her to take a look at my portfolio, because that shows my style of work, and that is what she will get!

If it wasn't two weeks before Christmas, and I didn't have much going on, I would have given a price for a portrait to her requirements, but that just puts more pressure on me. If she wants my style, it'll take me less time, so she will probably get it done for free, but I'm not going to put myself to the trouble just because I can charge more, it always has a way of coming back to bite you!

[Ron]

I don't know how wedding photographers keep their sanity. They are often subjected to abuse ... beware of the bride's mother! And, their product is seldom 'good enough' because the bride (and her aforementioned mom) have a preconceived notion about how things are 'supposed' to look.

 

I'm sure that it can be rewarding though, especially when everything works out.

 

--Ron

[Tony]

This happened to me quite some time ago.  While attending college in downtown Portland, Oregon I had a part time job working for an OLD MONEY department store.  I was permanently assigned to the photo department where I was introduced to the real world of photography.  The manager of the Photo Department and I became good friends and he invited me to tag along with him on a wedding shoot.  Well, everything was going well until he tried to assist the bride by asking her to please push her hair back to accentuate her face.  She refused, and was quite rude toward him and said, "Look, I have spent hours working on my hair and it is just fine, thank you very much."  He tried a second time, to no avail.  Of course when the proofs became available, he contacted her and she came to the lab.  You would not believe what she did next.  She really jumped down his throat with both feet and started screaming at him for taking her photo with her hair, "Looking like that."  I pulled him aside and said, "Chuck, she is trying to get out of paying for the proofs, do not let her get away with it."  He didn't let her get away with it, and that was the last wedding he did.  Unfortunately, people think that just because they are paying you, that makes you their slave.  Thanks for reading,

 

Tony

[Russ]

Crikey Thumper! Some people just can't appreciate a favour.

I'm doing a few for my company website, no hassle so far, all in company time, so all good.

[Tony]

So...I've got to know--did you tell Linda to go soak her head? (I want to tell her that and I don't even know her.) After your nice chat over a scotch--did it end there or did you end up doing what she and the new guy were asking? 

 

And deano is right--I nearly always find that the people who want things for free or discounted somehow seem to demand the most. I always have to wonder what the crap is wrong with people???

Hi Nicole,

You will find people to be extreme on both ends.  Please read my post down below for a good example.  Thnx, Tony

[TBonz]

Ahhhh...yes...the stress !  Yea...I think I probably would have been less kind than you!

 

Sports is different, but lots of the sports I shoot are also on spec...I go out and shoot - because I enjoy doing it with the hope that some folks will purchase some of the images.  I've done paid shoots (sports and otherwise) and they are definitely more stressful.  The most demanding are the unpaid jobs though.  I honestly got an e-mail from someone today asking me if I would come take some photos of a Christmas tree in a particular meeting / party venue as they want to get it put into the paper.  I did not say no...I did not say yes either.  I asked a few questions about what they were looking for and they haven't gotten back to me yet.  IMHO, if the paper wanted it, their photographer could easily swing by and take it or they could call / e-mail me with what they wanted and what they would pay me to do it.  This time of year is pretty busy with the holidays, family, etc. so the questions I asked included when they needed it available and whether they wanted it day or night.  I've done similar for this person before...a good person to have on your side, but no payment offer yet...

 

But in general, I agree with Peter.  If you have a contract and a deadline, you know what you need going in and it is much less stressful - and you don't run into situations where they come back asking for changes.  I would like to get to a point where I can live off the small amount I make doing photography - part of that by increasing the amount and part of it being that I am retired and can pick and choose as I wish.  I may still get there - planning on getting back to the sports photography again after the first of the year now that my project at work is slowly settling down.  When I wasn't working, I mostly spent time with family.  Suffice to say that I have images from months ago that I haven't had the chance to process yet and it has been well over a month since I've pulled out my DSLRs or my mirrorless.  

 

I have taken a number of pix with my phone and I will take this opportunity to post one since I have no idea when I will have time to get back here and catch up!  Xylie was my younger son's 21st birthday present.  He's been asking for a pup for well over a year and together we finally found the right pup for him.  

 

 

It is going to be interesting later this week when, in addition to my wife and I, we have our two dogs, my older son, his girlfriend and his two dogs, along with our younger son, his girlfriend and Xylie.  Anyone want to take on trying to get a family portrait of that gang while we are all together?  I promise I am not a difficult client, but I do want it for free    !!!  Thumper, why don't you drive up from TX!  I am willing to offer you a good cigar, a cold beer and maybe even some killer egg nog if the pix are anything near what I've seen from your images!

 

[leighgion]

I suppose I've been fairly lucky with the photographic favors I've done. For the most part, I got some amount of appreciation and usually few if any demands. In fact, at times I got frustrated because of the completely limp response to questions about preferences.

 

An exception to that is a couple recent occasions involving a project of my wife's. My wife did not make any unreasonable demands and was very appreciative, but her partner was pulling out eleventh hour requests for additional shots and for photoshopping that wouldn't have been a problem if she'd asked me to wipe out the background in the first place. It was my wife that exercised the right to nix the additional shots (since they were of her, and she was being stridently demanded by our baby) and I grumbled my way through photoshopping out a background I could have simply moved my subject farther away from in the first place had I known. 

 

I am not a pro, not by a long shot, but I do get consistently astounded by how little pros in related fields seem to appreciate photography and what it takes. 

[Tony]

I have stated many times that I am a hobbyist photographer and that I do not aspire to do this professionally despite my obsession with it.  I do truly love photography, and I love looking at other people's photography.  

 

I have always had an admiration for people that do this for a living in any of the genres of photography.   I was always concerned that if I ever had to produce photographs for a living that I would lose my love for it.  It happened with computers. I used to build computers for fun back in the early to mid 90's, but once I started doing IT work professionally, computers weren't fun anymore.  I didn't want that to happen with my photography.  I shoot almost 100% for my own pleasure.  (I recently went to my granddaughter's High School graduation and took photos for my own collection, but I shared a couple, and one in particular that of the entire graduating class throwing their mortarboards into the air that was a real hit with the class and faculty.  That was fun). 

 

I would do favors for people here and there, and I might take a few shots of something for them, and it was usually portrait type stuff.  I always give my obligatory disclaimer that I am not a professional and that I don't do professional work and that what they get is what they get.  I am not going to spend a lot of time going back over and over to retouch or photoshop things to get what they want.  They can pay someone to do that.  

 

Over the summer, I agreed to bring my camera to a company BBQ and picnic and just shoot.  They just wanted random shots of the event and people enjoying each other.  I reluctantly agreed, and I gave my usual disclaimer along with a statement of no guarantee of a specific time that I might be done with the final photographs.  They seemed to be fine with it.  I took a lot of shots (around 200-250), and I had a blast doing it.  I produced a total of 83 photos, of which I gave them 75 of the photos.  I did it for free, and I told them to do with the photos what they wanted.  They ended up giving me a $100 gift card as a "thank you" gift.  I thought that was pretty cool of them.  

 

So a couple of months ago, the "marketing director" of our firm asked me to do a "few"shots for a staff directory that would include staff photos.  The staff had been asked to submit their own "favorite" photos of themselves, but there were a few that either didn't submit photos or said that they didn't have any to submit.   I agreed, again, for free, and I gave my usual speech.  (This would be for the same marketing director that I purchased a Nikon P&S camera for when she started with the firm a couple of years ago, but the camera hasn't been out of the box once since I bought it for her).  I took my umbrellas, stands, speedlights, and backdrops up to work and setup for a few shots.  I ended up with about 12 people that needed photos.  Not a big deal.  I took the shots, and started working on them in my spare time.  Apparently, the marketing idiot had waited until the last minute to get these done, so by the time that she had asked me to get involved, she was already being pushed to produce them.  So she starts nagging me about them. I told her that I would get them done as soon as I could, but that I didn't agree to a time line, and that if she had wanted that then she should have commissioned a professional photographer and setup a deadline.  Once I produced the photos, she didn't like several of them and asked me to redo them.  I told her that I would, but that I would get them to her when I could, and that probably wouldn't be anytime soon.  She didn't like that and started arguing about it that I needed to get on it immediately. I had to laugh a bit at that point.  I told her to forget it and just make due with what she had.  She wanted to continue to argue about it until I finally told her to get the hell out of my office and to never ask me to do any photo work for her in the future.  I  vowed that I would never again do something like that as a favor for anyone, and it reinforced my decision to never pursue photography professionally.

 

Well, I am stupid.  Because I did do it again, and right after that, as a matter of fact.  One of the attorneys that I really like had asked me last year to take a photo of him and 2 other attorneys for some group/committee that they all belong to.  It was to be published, but I did it for free.  It was quick and easy, and the shot turned out okay. Not amazing, but it was a decent shot, and all 3 liked it, and they all thanked me for doing it.  Fast forward to this year.  Same guy approaches me, and he asks if I will take another shot for this year's group, which had added an extra person.  Wow, I was still reeling from my last bad experience that had just happened about 2 weeks prior to his.  I agreed to do it because I really like this guy, and he has always been there for me when I have needed him at work.  We took the shots, and I worked up a couple of photos for them to choose from.  Then I get a group email from the new guy in the photo wanting things changed around.  Rather than go through all of the changes that he wanted, I offered to reshoot it.  Nope, he didn't want that.  Then I get a call from the same marketing gal telling me how to go about editing the shot!!  Before I could respond to that, I get another email from the new guy saying that he had brought "Linda" (yes, I changed her name) in on the project so she could advise me.  That was followed by an email to the entire group from Linda which was ordering me to make the changes  (which I am not subordinate to her in any capacity at work, let alone for a volunteer job), and berated me for my previous submissions and not consulting her first (when she wasn't involved in the project at all anyway).  I went to the attorney that had asked me to do this, and he started apologizing the second that I walked into his office before I could even say a word.  I just laughed, and I told him that I wasn't upset with him at all.  I told him about the staff directory project, and he just put his face in his palm.  He felt bad that it went sour so quickly.  I told him that it was no big deal, but that I was done with the project at that point, and they would just have to roll with what they had.  (We laughed, and he poured us both each a glass of Auchentoshen 18, and we had a nice chat over some really tasty scotch.  That alone was worth the hassle.  LOL).  But that was truly the final straw for me.  No more favors.   My photography will be 100% for my own pleasure from this point forward.  

 

I must say, I have always admired people that do this sort of thing for a living, but every once and a while, something happens that reminds me how much admire them.  LOL.  You pro's must have the patience of saints.  I know that the stress is a lot different for freelance journalistic and sports photographers since the whole process is so much different (and I won't even get into how competitive that is), but having to do that for a means of income would be a nightmare for me.  I do so enjoy the freedom of just being able to take shots of whatever I want, being able to take whatever time that I want to produce something (if at all), and how it turns out is entirely up to me.  I do love that. I am forever the student (my Sensei would always say that to me. "Senpai, be ever the student.  At all things.") I can learn this at my own rate/pace, and I can make my mistakes and learn and it won't affect my livelihood. It affords me the luxury of experimenting at my leisure.   But I do respect and truly admire those of you who do this full time, and even part time, as professionals.  I know that you are doing something that you love for a living and a career, and there are few things that are quite as rewarding as that.  But I know that I would probably be in jail right now for beating someone half to death with a lens if I had to put up with that kind of crap all the time.  LOL!!

Reading through this post again, the next question that comes to mind is:  Did everyone involved know that you were doing this work for Gratis, or did some of them assume the company was paying you extra?  That may explain the attitude that one woman had toward the whole idea.  Just a thought.

I haven't seen a lot of your work, however you can consider yourself very talented and gifted, since you are so much in demand.  The problem as I see it is that it happened with your employer.  I believe that if you had your own facilities to work within, you would be very successful. The other issue to keep in mind is that the field is over crowded and very competitive now, much like a rats' nest.  So unless a person is under contract say with National Geographic or Elle Magazine, or Cover Girl magazine, your looking at approximately $45,000 USD per year gross.  That amount of salary is not that much more than the poverty level here in the United States.  They say that as long as you are doing what you love, the money eventually will start rolling in.  Not true as Peter's testimony is proof positive.  Hope this helps and if you do venture into the Cold, Cruel world, I am sure we all wish you every success.  Thanks for your article.

 

Tony