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Second shooter


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31 replies to this topic

#1
OTRTexan

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Through the wonders of the internet, I may have the opportunity to be the second shooter on a cattle drive shoot for some very high end clients. After having about an hour long discussion, I quoted the photographer my fee. What wasn't discussed, and I'm not sure if she's even thought about it, is photo credits. I don't know what her actual photography experience is, and I know that her gear is only a partial indicator, but she's having to rent most, if not all, of what she needs. Her only body is a D7000. She's having to rent a 70-200. She has an 80-300 as her longest. That being said, she still may be a fantastic photographer. The client is looking to purchase 30-40 wall size prints (40x60), for their ranch house and 3 guest houses. So it's a very large contract. Needless to say, the fee is secondary to the possible contact. What I really want is my name attached to the images that I shoot, that they use. Is this an acceptable request as a second shooter? The client lives in an area that could very easily be within my base of operations. I'm certainly not going to try to take over this shoot or attempt to steal it away from her in any way. I'm just going as a second shooter hopefully. I gave her a profit percentage quote. But if the client uses a good number of my images, I don't want them to think she shot them. They will of course know I'll be there as she has to talk to them about letting me assist. As a secondary question, are watermarks used on these types of prints? Again, that could be a customer generator if their high end guests Ike the images.


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#2
Merco_61

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When I have had to subcontract to a second shooter I have always used my logo with the photographer's name under, either as a discreet watermark if that is acceptable to the client, or as a printed sticker on the frame. Without a watermark, my norm is that the photographer signs the print. This might, of course, differ in other markets.



#3
dcbear78

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For weddings the second shooter for all intents and purposes does not exist professionally. Your photos are their photos. They are hiring/employing you to be able to replicate their work, not stamp your own style on the photos. 

 

I am shooting for another photographer on the weekend. There will be three of us in total. It is to cover a charity fun run that is organised by my local Port Authority, one of the biggest businesses in town. The only business credit will go to the originating photographer. His name will be on the cheque. On the plus side I get the experience, hand over cards at the end of the day so no processing and on top of that I get paid. I won't even get to see the photos I took.

 

As for watermarks, if anyone is paying you, then there will be no watermarks. For my job this weekend it is for a major corporate entity so they can use for their promotions of this and future events. They are paying good money so don't want someone else's logo on their photos. We even have instructions to get some photos that exclude current year's sponsor so the photos do not date. It's quite interesting really. I have been given a full run sheet of what photos are expected of me, from what positions at certain times. Details down to where to park my car for best access.

 

There is a difference between second shooting and co-shooting.



#4
Merco_61

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There is a huge difference between hired help and subcontractor. To me, Jamie's situation sounds more like a subcontract.

 

When it comes to watermarks. it is completely up to the client what is acceptable. If the gig is for prints and you keep the rights to the files, a discreet watermark isn't unusual. If the fee includes free usage for the files, the files ar of course never watermarked.



#5
OTRTexan

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Yes, it's a sub contract. In fact that term was even used by the other party. And of course this isn't commercial photography, it's fine art. I'll be doing my own post and retaining rights. The other photographer is hoping to enter something in a county fair afterwards. Personally, I'm hoping for a Western Horseman or Texas Monthly magazine shot. So going equipped with model releases.

This is all speculation at this point since nothing is set in stone.


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#6
TBonz

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To me, I guess the cutoff is the post...If I am giving cards / images unedited, then I don't expect the recipient will know who shot them (nor care positively or negatively).  If I'm doing the editing then I at least want the recipient to know where each image came from.  That may be in the form of a watermark or any physical form as Peter suggested earlier.  Of course, it may be as simple as giving the client a CD or space to download images from that indicate who shot each image.  The key is letting that (or those) individuals know who should be credited with taking the images they choose.  When I shot for a sports web magazine, there were times when multiple photographers shot the same game.  Each did all their own work and uploaded to the web magazine's SmugMug web site.  All photographers saved their final (to-be-uploaded) images with their initials as the first part of the file name and created a gallery with a specific format ending with By Joe Smith (or whatever their name was) so that folks knew who shot the image and the owners could determine easily who would get paid for the sale.



#7
nbanjogal

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First of all, what a great opportunity--I hope it works out for you! 

 

This seems rather different than a wedding (and my experience has been the same as dcBear's in that respect--no credit to second shooters), and given the circumstances you describe it seems reasonable to expect credit for the images you shoot. 

 

Since you're subcontracting, I expect you'll have a contract to sign? That document would be the first place I'd look for the answer to your question.



#8
OTRTexan

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If it were a wedding, I agree, totally different. I would expect anything but a fee. And probably wouldn't be editing either.

I honestly think she is an amateur or semi pro at best, like myself I might add, and doubt she would even think of a contract unless I bring it up. Or if someone else tells her. I know my involvement would depend on what it would state if one is in play, and one should be, especially with the customer.


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The biggest pro to this arrangement is the possibility of some very high end clients. She gave them a rough estimate of $35,000. So it's a big ticket.


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#9
nbanjogal

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Holy cow--if she's working a $35,000 project I hope she's smart enough to know she needs a contract... I hope you get your foot firmly in this door--would be great to have some high end clientele.



#10
etphoto

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If it were a wedding, I agree, totally different. I would expect anything but a fee. And probably wouldn't be editing either.

I honestly think she is an amateur or semi pro at best, like myself I might add, and doubt she would even think of a contract unless I bring it up. Or if someone else tells her. I know my involvement would depend on what it would state if one is in play, and one should be, especially with the customer.


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The biggest pro to this arrangement is the possibility of some very high end clients. She gave them a rough estimate of $35,000. So it's a big ticket.


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Not to sound like a photo gear snob but I highly doubt she is a pro shooting with a $500 camera and renting lenses. I am curious how she got the job. If I was forking out $35,000 I'd be very nervous if someone showed up with amateur gear. Hell, a cattle drive? Your gear is going to take some pounding.

Anyways, I wish I was in your shoes OTRTexan because this sounds like fun. I can't wait to see your images if this pans out for you.

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#11
OTRTexan

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Yesterday she was asking about a monopod, and someone mentioned if you use a 70-200, to be sure and attach it to the foot. What's a foot? She asked .... This is one of those cases of, it's not what you know, it's who you know.


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#12
nbanjogal

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This is one of those cases of, it's not what you know, it's who you know.

 

Yep...sounds like it. Well, I hope this contact becomes a "who you know" for you too! I'm also excited to see your images. Since you've been in contact with her lately, it sounds like things are moving forward as you had hoped--any idea when the shoot will happen? Have you been able to talk to her about whether she'll be giving you credit? Have you seen a contract yet? :) Questions, questions!



#13
OTRTexan

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I've only answered some of her rookie questions in the group. We haven't had any further conversation as far as the shoot goes. Frankly I think she may feel a little intimidated, and it may not go through. It's set for late September. I figured I'd give her a few days and then ask how things are looking. I made several comments about it being her show and I'd just be there to shoot backup, so I'm hoping that's not the case. But I'm not getting my hopes up.

That being said, I will be shooting a winter cattle drive in Oregon around November. This is not a paid thing, well, not a contracted one. Just met a guy in Oregon last week who cowboys up there and we got to talking. I'm actually looking forward to that more. I've seen Texas cattle drives all my life. I've always wanted to shoot one with snow on the ground. That one is a sure thing. Taking vacation time to go up and do it. Should be fun.


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#14
TBonz

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Who you know can be very important and get you in the door, but you have to deliver the product at some point...maybe you could offer to train her :)



#15
Ron

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If you're shooting a cattle drive, be it pro or pro bono, it may be a good idea to look into equipment insurance. etphoto makes a good point about the pounding your stuff is gonna take.

 

And, while I'm late to this thread, I have been following it. Judging from what I've read about the person who will be running the show, I'm not especially optimistic. Whether she knows these people or not, I'm pretty sure they're gonna want something substantial for their $35K. People who have money often expect top quality and will settle for nothing less. And, as much as I love my own D7000, I doubt if I'd want to bet the farm on it in a must do photo shoot. The questions about monopods and lens feet don't inspire confidence either.

 

Sorry to sound like a Debbie Downer here but forewarned is forearmed.

 

--Ron



#16
OTRTexan

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Believe me. I share your thoughts fully. She is planning on renting an 810, but not sure it will help. Frankly I expect that if it does go through, that my images will make up the bulk of the used images. Most of the 35k will go to lab costs. My hopes would be, that even though I'd be getting the short end of the stick on this deal, that the customer will like my work and use me next time they need a photographer.


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#17
TBonz

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I think you are correct about her being intimidated by you...Perhaps offering to help and "train" her isn't such a bad idea even though I initially threw it out as a joke...I know you can handle both the shoot and the instruction...And in doing that, you can make sure there is a contract in place with the customer and between the two of you that works for you.  I agree that better gear would be nice, but a D7000, although older now, is a good camera that is capable of taking some excellent images...I am sure I would bring some higher end gear, but it also might be my choice for some of the more camera unfriendly situations...Insurance would definitely be an excellent idea and from the sounds of it, there should be plenty of funds from the job to pay for it and any rental gear / damages...

 

No biggie, just thinking out loud...Actually, it sounds like something I would enjoy doing with you if you need a second :)!



#18
OTRTexan

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I'm sure the 7000 is capable of making great images. But since we are looking at 40x60 prints, I think the 810 would really shine. I'm going to message her in a day or two and see where we stand. Honestly I'm afraid if I offer to "train her" , she may back out altogether. I've offered advice without trying to sound like I want to take over.

I've been looking at insurance options for awhile now, simply because I have a substantial investment now. Just haven't made up my mind which way to go.


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#19
Ron

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I didn't mean to put the camera (D7000) down. Heck, I own one and I love it. It's a great camera. However, it is starting to show it's age in places. Still, Sportz makes a good point about it possibly being preferable in an unfriendly environment. Add to that the fact that it's gonna be a lot easier on the pocketbook to replace should it get dropped and trampled.

 

The problem with the D810 is the learning curve. It's quite a jump from the D7000 and while controls might not be a problem, it's designed to produce images with much higher IQ. Lenses that might work beautifully with the D7000 might not be so good for the D810. If she's gonna get a kit that includes the D810 and... say, the trinity then yeah, that would work... cept for the aforementioned learning curve.

 

And, if you gotta train her... well, except for the experience (and it should be a pretty unique experience at that) ... I donno. That's a whole nother can o' worms. Depending of course on how much training she actually needs. I must say, I do find the whole thing intriguing. 

 

--Ron



#20
OTRTexan

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Just hope it gets a chance to play out. If not, I guess it made for entertaining discussion


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